Monday, December 28, 2015

Happy Feast of the Holy Family! Pope Claims Jesus Had to Beg Forgiveness From His Parents

Yes, this accurately describes the reality. If you have a problem with it, take it up with Francis.

Jesus asked God the Father to forgive others. He never asked anyone to forgive Him.

Well, okay, he asked Mary Magdalen to forgive Him, but that was only a movie.

To be serious, there is a simple and obvious reason why Jesus never asked anyone to forgive Him: He never committed a sin.

That's because, while fully man, he was also fully God, and God doesn't commit sins, even, you know, small ones.

Incredibly, the Pope (the Pope!) doesn't seem to understand or believe this. In his homily for the feast of the Holy Family he claimed (emphasis in red):
At the end of that pilgrimage, Jesus returned to Nazareth and was obedient to his parents (cf. Lk 2:51). This image also contains a beautiful teaching about our families. A pilgrimage does not end when we arrive at our destination, but when we return home and resume our everyday lives, putting into practice the spiritual fruits of our experience. We know what Jesus did on that occasion. Instead of returning home with his family, he stayed in Jerusalem, in the Temple, causing great distress to Mary and Joseph who were unable to find him. For this little “escapade”, Jesus probably had to beg forgiveness of his parents. The Gospel doesn’t say this, but I believe that we can presume it. Mary’s question, moreover, contains a certain reproach, revealing the concern and anguish which she and Joseph felt.
Now, of course, if we believe the Bible account, we know what really happened. Jesus didn't beg forgiveness when His parents finally found Him. Instead:
When they saw Him, they were astonished; and His mother said to Him, "Son, why have You treated us this way? Behold, Your father and I have been anxiously looking for You." And He said to them, "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father's house?" But they did not understand the statement which He had made to them.…
In my view, that's one of the most memorable passages in the New Testament. Through a window of 2,000 years you can feel the concern, and then the astonishment, of Mary and Joseph. They were worried about their son, as any parents would be. Interestingly, though, while they get an answer they didn't expect--"I was in My Father's House"--an answer that in the mouth of any other child would have been interpreted as obnoxious at the least, they do not reproach Him or box his ears, etc. Rather, Luke records them as being merely puzzled. I think they were also awed. They knew their son was heaven sent, even if they did not yet know He was God.  

But back to the Pope. He makes statements that no knowledgable and faithful Christian would ever make. He either doesn't know his Christian teachings or he disagrees with them.

I do not think any more that he believes that Jesus was the Son of God.

Is the Pope Catholic? Well, he was baptized, obviously, and he was confirmed as a Catholic and then as a priest. So. in that sense, of course he's a Catholic. On the other hand, in terms of subscribing to Catholic teachings, the evidence suggests that the answer would be no.


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A word on sources. This homily is taken from the Official Vatican Network. But I was directed to it by Novus Ordo Watch. The funny/unfunny blog title picture is from their post. Novus Ordo Watch is a sedevacantist group. I am not a sedevacantist, and there's about as much chance of me ever becoming one as there is of me opening up a brothel in Tangiers or becoming a Sufi . . . or being elected President of the United States. If you have read many of my posts, you will also see that I disagree with the Novus guys on a great many matters.

But you know what? Aside from falsely (in my view) believing that the Pope is NOT the Pope, they've been more right and less wrong about Pope matters than the majority of Catholic bloggers. Give them some credit, unless you're one of those people who has an inordinate fear of what other people think.

Pray for them. And pray for all of us.

42 comments:

  1. I am a sedevacantist and I appreciate this site as much as I do Novus Ordo Watch. In my mind you function as a sede. Otherwise you would be using the elusive 'hermeneutic of continuity' to explain away all the crap that has been spewing out of the mouth of the 'sweet vicar of Christ on earth'.

    Seattle Kim

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    1. Kim, this pope is ANTY-POPE, so-called false prophet. Pope Benedict is still a true pope whose throne is stolen by this pro-masonic pope... You will also like this article and this website:http://biblefalseprophet.com/2015/12/27/pedro-regis-prophesied-a-black-pope-jesuit-right-before-benedict-xvis-election-process/

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    2. Pedro Regis also prophesied the antuchrist would come to power in 2012 and his rein would end a year later. He is a fraud.

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    3. For the author of this blog do not forget that Bergoglio is technically an apostate and a heretic; the sin of apostasy is worse because he received the sacrament of baptism. His sin is equivalent to the sin of the fallen angels. Bergoglio also was uttering blasphemies against the Holy Spirit.

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  2. Our Lady and St Joseph knew Jesus was God and worshipped the Christ Child.

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    1. Agreed. And that is why I detest the ever popular song "Mary Did You Know?" which I am forced to accompany every Christmas at the Novus Ordo church where I work.
      I justify playing it by assuming the composer meant it as a rhetorical question. Of course she knew! An angel appeared to her! She conceived without knowing a man!

      Seattle kim

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    2. Thanks to both of you--Kim and the Bones. I rewrote those two sentence to make them clearer. But I do not think Mary and Joseph knew at that time that He was God. Mary was told that He would be "called the Son of God." But that's a bit different. It's also somewhat mysterious and capable of multiple meanings. How (she might have thought) could God have a Son? I assume this is why Luke writes that "they did not understand the statement which He had made to them." If there are other passages that have relevance to this issue, let me know.

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  3. Pope Francis certainly has a way about him that whatever he says infuriates or frustrates many of us. His disease of sentimentalism is not only peculiar to him but many of the clergy seem to have it. It is an inability to either see reality or be able to accept it.

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  4. Greetings fellow believers in Christ-
    I have no iron in this fire, since I'm a Calvinist Protestant, but I am interested in what you think of the Scorsese film "The Last Temptation..." (Mahound linked to it in this post.)

    Did any of you see it, and do you feel it has any redeemable qualities or is it pure heresy?
    By the way, I read the novel by Kazantzakis long before I saw the film. I would be interested in what you have to say.

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    1. Pure heresy. Not only heresy, but a diabolical inversion of everything in the gospel, and everything in Christology.

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    2. "Greetings fellow believers in Christ-" ..."I'm a Calvinist Protestant"

      If you "believe in Christ" on your terms, not His, which is the foundation of the protestant heresy, you are not a "fellow believer in Christ."

      You reject His Church, you reject Him.

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  5. "Beg forgiveness?" This reminds the Bear of angry Mary shaking her fist at God from the foot of the cross. Pope Francis likes to embellish scripture in order to "humanize" the characters, to make them more relevant and accessible to his audience. I suspect he simply doesn't think through the implications of the things he says. I imagine he is intellectually impoverished to a degree we would find shocking if we knew. If the Holy Spirit had wanted to record an apologizing Jesus it would have. To have the Pope simply making up things, or saying whatever pops into his mind, is scary.

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    1. This is at the Crux of it, pun intended. Evangelii Gaudium 161, his after-synod Homily where he makes up what the Apostles did, and then this thing. Is there a Bishop around that will stand up to resist him to the face?

      I am NOT a sedevacantist. To be one you must then, if you have any integrity, disavow ALL the Bishops and the Church Herself, as gutlessness exists EVERYWHERE at this time. More or less, Fags Rule. As my FSSP priest says; "We are being punished for our sins."

      I agree. We must suffer this scourge.

      We need a revolution. A Revolution of Righteousness.

      Remember, tho, the ones Pope Francis appears to be catering to don't build "churches", they flee from then and deny them. Give them enough booze and they will drink themselves to death. And pray that the Lord may save every single soul who seeks him. Even those who at this time are enemies.

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  6. Another person who understands Italian wrote:

    It's also not what he said. Unfortunately, the officially released translation rendered the Italian "chiedere scusa ai suoi genitori" as, "beg forgiveness", though the Italian, strictly rendered, means, "ask [that] his parents excuse" his "little escapade" [It. "scappatella"]. "Chiedere scusa" is not synonymous with "chiedere perdono", let alone "implorare perdono", which is what "beg forgiveness" would be in Italian. Here is Vatican Radio's report. http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/12/27/pope_francis_at_mass_the_pilgrim_family_at_the_center/1197196

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    1. I do not dispute what you are saying, but since I do not understand Italian, I cannot verify it. Let's assume it's true and that what the Pope actually said was unobjectionable. So, now official Vatican translators are manufacturing Papal heresies and posting them in the language with the greatest readership. Great. We await the explanation and retraction.

      But even given all of that, I do not think the second meaning is neutral. Certainly, "ask his parents' excuse" is softer than "beg his parents' forgiveness" but its implication is the same: Jesus did something wrong that He then had to apologize for or beg excuse/forgiveness for, etc. Why would He "ask excuse" if He hadn't done anything wrong?

      One of the most important points (as I take it) of the passage in Luke is that Jesus' words are jarring. He's a 13 year-old, after all. You almost expect Him to apologize but He doesn't. Instead he quasi-reproaches his parents! "Did you not know that I had to be in My Father's house?" He's either almost psychotically obnoxious or He is God.

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    2. I am inclined to agree with you, Oakes, but the translation was wrong.

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    3. I think that person tries to beat around the bush and is wrong. Here is the translation of "Chiedere scusa" http://dictionary.reverso.net/italian-english/scusa
      chiedo scusa!
      n.
      I apologize!

      to say sorry

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    4. http://en.bab.la/dictionary/italian-english/chiedere-scusa

      chiedere

      to ask, to inquire, to query




      scusa

      apology, excuse, out, pardon me, umbrage

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    5. http://en.dicios.com/iten/chiedere-scusa

      chiedere scusa

      - apologize

      - beg pardon

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    6. "We know what Jesus did on that occasion. Instead of returning home with his family, he stayed in Jerusalem, in the Temple, causing great distress to Mary and Joseph who were unable to find him. For this little “escapade”, Jesus probably had to beg forgiveness of his parents. The Gospel doesn’t say this, but I believe that we can presume it." http://www.news.va/en/news/holy-mass-for-the-families-27-december-2015

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    7. I Wonder if that person understand Italian better that the Vatican official page? http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/homilies/2015/documents/papa-francesco_20151227_omelia-santa-famiglia.html

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    8. I do not claim to understand Italian better. Rather, I am implying that the translators at the Vatican have an agenda to push and they deliberately choose a more liberal progressive translation than a literal one.

      Here is the Italian:

      Invece di tornare a casa con i suoi, si era fermato a Gerusalemme nel Tempio, provocando una grande pena a Maria e Giuseppe che non lo trovavano più. Per questa sua “scappatella”, probabilmente anche Gesù dovette chiedere scusa ai suoi genitori. Il Vangelo non lo dice, ma credo che possiamo supporlo.

      Here is a literal translation:

      Instead of returning home with her, had stopped in the Temple in Jerusalem, causing great pain to Mary and Joseph did not find it anymore. For his "fling", probably even Jesus had to apologize to her parents. The Gospel does not say, but I think we can suppose.

      Notice how very different it is from the official translation:

      Instead of returning home with his family, he stayed in Jerusalem, in the Temple, causing great distress to Mary and Joseph who were unable to find him. For this little “escapade”, Jesus probably had to beg forgiveness of his parents. The Gospel doesn’t say this, but I believe that we can presume it.

      I for one do NOT trust official translations from the Vatican.

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    9. Actually, your literal translation is worse. To begin with there no significant difference whatsoever between "had to beg forgiveness" and "had to apologize" so that point is a complete wash. But what makes your translation worse is that the Son of God has suddenly become a female.

      I for one do not trust unofficial translations from anonymous com-boxers.

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    10. Arrogant. Very disappinted in this blog and the self-righteous comnenters. Not worth the effort. Bye.

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    11. I hope you give us another chance, Lucius. I appreciated your point. I just don't think proves what you seem to think it does.

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    12. Well, what do you think Lucius, should I apologize or beg your forgiveness? Just when is one to be used and the other not?

      You'll have to please excuse my impatience with this subject (see another one!). I am just beyond tired with people trying to apologize, mitigate, or otherwise explain away this pope's heterodoxy.

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  7. well Mary had to know. A fucking angel came down and told her right? Too bad the pic isn't your's. it made me laugh.

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    1. We're Catholics, Brian. We believe in winged angels, just not winged horses. :)

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    2. That occurred to me too. But Bergoglio could surely do another improvement on Scripture and tell us that by this time, Mary had forgotten all about that virgin birth stuff. Life with Jesus had been so human and ordinary, exactly like our lives today in the 21st century, that she'd probably convinced herself that it was all a dream. In fact, how do we know that it WASN'T all a dream... ?

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  8. I never thought I'd say this but when the pope speaks crap we don't have to pay him any mind. It's just like when your grandfather with dementia strips naked at the dinner table. You put his clothes back on and move on.

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    1. I think this is a most charitable and honorable way to deal with this Pope. It does not address those who are led astray, but at this point, I simply am grasping at straws and hoping a good handful is enough to support my weight. LOL.

      Thanks, dymphna. Well put.

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    2. "It's just like when your grandfather with dementia strips naked at the dinner table."

      "I think this is a most charitable and honorable way to deal with this Pope."

      I think we're in trouble. :)

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    3. Oh yeah, we're in trouble and the worst is yet to come but Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat. The vicar is nuts but I worship the King.

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  9. So just what was the Father's business that Jesus had to be about? Here is the Catholic Douay-Rheims translation: "And he said to them: How is it that you sought me? did you not know, that I must be about my father's business? And they understood not the word that he spoke unto them." So just what was the Father's business that Jesus had to be about? I don't understand exactly what he means here either, along with his parents.

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  10. Very thoughtful comments, except for insulting someone making a contribution. The last question is a good one; I always took it to be that Jesus loves His Father, and His house is where he would be in His element. He is the Word made flesh, and here He is discussing God's Word with others who care for it. The Word on discussion with others about the Word!

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  11. Frank, a Jewish boy becomes a man at what, 12 or 13? I think Our Lord was showing that He knew fully well who He was and what He had come to do. He might have also been leaving something for His mother to remember later when she'd have to wait another three days to find Him again.

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  12. "They knew their son was heaven sent, even if they did not yet know He was God."

    They knew He was God, you're as bad as the pope!

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    1. I'm open to hearing your argument on that. But my reading of the Gospels and my understanding of Catholic tradition says otherwise.

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