tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post7786466625873287437..comments2023-10-02T01:11:04.783-07:00Comments on Mahound's <br>Paradise: Is This the End?Oakes Spaldinghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08078500142758654392noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-5399768171465733562016-10-12T06:26:25.265-07:002016-10-12T06:26:25.265-07:00As a former catholic of 20 years, I really don'...As a former catholic of 20 years, I really don't see how anyone could come to any conclussion other than #5. <br /><br /><br />Imagine you you have an uncle. You've known him your entire life, and he's always been super-helpful, offering you advice he's learned from his long and sordid life. And you take his advice. But every time you take this uncle's advice, it backfires. It just always makes things worse and gets you in trouble, no matter what. And the older you get, the easier it becomes to recognize your uncle's bad advice for what it is. How long would take you to stop listening to your uncle who is never right about anything?<br /><br /><br />That uncle is the catholic church, and christianity as a whole. Christianity has been on the wrong side of literally every human rights issue in history. Usury, Indulgences, Slavery, divine right of kings, Limited Education, institutionalized poverty, women's sufferage, african american civil rights, lgbt rights, pedophilia, contraception, the treatment of religious minorities (especially the jews), the list goes on. <br /><br /><br />So, how long will it be until the remaining catholics just tell their deranged uncle to stop hanging around? What more does it take for you all to become atheists?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02271454807517952661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-9196777701423389852016-09-19T17:20:44.354-07:002016-09-19T17:20:44.354-07:00Yep, it's going to get worse. "And unles...Yep, it's going to get worse. "And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened." (Mt. 24:22) How is it possible to believe that Francis has the Faith? Only because it is an article of the faith, defined at Vatican-I: Our Lord's prayer for St. Peter that his faith "faileth not" applies to his successors. Other than that, there is no way for me to suspect Francis of having the Faith because no one who has the Faith could undermine it so terribly. But the Good God sees something I can't.<br /><br />Hence, we walk in Faith. Here are some helpful words from St. Ignatius, his Rule no. 13:<br /><br />“To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it, believing that between Christ our Lord, the Bridegroom, and the Church, His Bride, there is the same Spirit which governs and directs us for the salvation of our souls. Because by the same Spirit and our Lord Who gave the ten Commandments, our holy Mother the Church is directed and governed.”Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-22596788945126895222016-09-19T03:15:32.444-07:002016-09-19T03:15:32.444-07:00Also, from my reading of Chapter 8 of AL, I rememb...Also, from my reading of Chapter 8 of AL, I remember that no particular sentence is unequivocally wrong, although the text as a whole shows the author's dangerous underlying ideology.David K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16353503547913857327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-91197462761623282142016-09-19T03:09:22.896-07:002016-09-19T03:09:22.896-07:00I realize it might seem silly to put so much empha...I realize it might seem silly to put so much emphasis on the precise definition of a magisterial "teaching" ("it depends on what the definition of 'is' is!") but as far as I can see, that is the best solution in order to defend the indefectibility of the Church.<br /><br />Sedevacantism is false because the the bishops' unanimous recognition of a particular person as pope is an infallible sign that he is indeed the pope (this is part of the traditional doctrine of "dogmatic facts"). As far as I know, there were no sedevacantist bishops before the mid-70s, when the Vatican II documents and the new Mass had long been promulgated, while sedevacantists claim the vacancy started in the mid-60s at the latest.<br /><br />It's also useless to claim that Francis was invalidly elected or that he lost his office through public heresy or that Benedict is still the pope, because all bishops who were in full communion with Pope Benedict still recognize Francis.<br /><br />It's also impossible that Pope Francis may have promulgated a law or teaching that explicitly allows what Divine law forbids (see the section on "Disciplinary infallibility" in the Catholic Encyclopedia's article on "Ecclesiastical Discipline"). It's irrelevant that AL is not ex cathedra.<br /><br />If I'm not mistaken, that leaves us with the possibility that Pope Francis holds a heterodox opinion, encourages others to adopt it but didn't technically "teach" it to the universal Church. This is what happened with Pope John XXII in the 14th century.<br /><br />Who has a better solution?David K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16353503547913857327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-43358192472575341792016-09-19T02:27:32.726-07:002016-09-19T02:27:32.726-07:00I honestly think "Amoris laetitia" (AL) ...I honestly think "Amoris laetitia" (AL) doesn't teach that unrepentant public adulterers can (at least sometimes) receive Holy Communion (the "Kasper thesis"). My intention is not to defend Pope Francis, but to save the traditional teaching on the indefectibility of the Church.<br /><br />As I understand it, to "teach" (in the context of the papal magisterium) means to command Catholics to believe something. It's clear that AL is meant to show Francis' support for the Kasper thesis and to encourage people to put it in practice, but I don't think AL is intended to command us to believe the Kasper thesis is true.<br /><br />You've probably heard that Archbishop Forte claimed that Francis had told him he had deliberately refrained from any explicit endorsement of the Kasper thesis in AL out of fear of the "chaos" that might have ensued. Instead, as Francis allegedly claimed, AL only contained certain premises from which the Kasper thesis might be deduced. As far as I can see, this can only mean that Francis wants tradition-minded Catholics to interpret AL "according to a hermeneutic of continuity," which would spare him accusations of heterodoxy.<br /><br />If we interpret AL in a way that is compatible with Catholic doctrine, even though such an interpretation may seem far-fetched or strained, we aren't disobeying Francis' commands; to the contrary, we are doing what he wants us to do.David K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16353503547913857327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-15292308218642207132016-09-18T13:12:49.037-07:002016-09-18T13:12:49.037-07:00If Jesus told us "the gates of hell will not ...If Jesus told us "the gates of hell will not prevail," then we need to understand that, at some point, it's going to look really REALLY bleak, and there will be many (even among the elect) who will be deceived into believing that God will somehow abandon His Bride in the end -- that God Himself is faithless. <br /><br />There's no safeguard against terrible prudential judgment on the part of a bishop or pope. There's no guarantee against a shepherd turning on the sheep. What is safeguarded is the Truth, because no one, not even a pope, can overturn the Truth. And Catholic doctrine is that Truth guarded by the Holy Spirit. The office of pope (not the pope as a human being, per se) is empowered not to teach something to be Truth which is false. You can let your imagination run wild with every kind of evil you can think of, and it's not out of the realm of possibility that a pope or bishop could personally succumb to that evil path. But the Holy Spirit will protect the office. Some people think it's a massive cop out loophole to fallback on, but it's not. It's the crux of the whole institution. What a pope is capable of outside of that guarantee is limitless. <br /><br />We still need to submit our obedience to the pope -- outside of manifest sin -- as an act of trust in God and His eternal wisdom in permitting this pope to reign. There's no way around it -- if we believe God's will is in all things (positively or permissively), then we can't shake our fist and say "WHY THIS POPE??" If we don't believe God is ultimately in control of all of this, then it's all a sham. And we know it's not a sham. God gave the people of Galilee miracles, and He gives us miracles as incontrovertible proof that there is something greater than all of us and all of our angst and outrage put together -- HIM. <br /><br />Pray for Francis unceasingly. Do the hard thing. Pray for him with love and compassion if you think he's "evil". Love him. Love the Holy Father we've been given. We are ultimately responsible to those around us, but we can't be responsible for everyone who reads a quote from the Holy Father and thinks they've got a hall pass to sin as much as they want. God knows everything. He tells us to pray, to love, to fast, and to forgive. Crossing the Cedronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16531913306963092398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-48184075601348132712016-09-18T05:17:12.639-07:002016-09-18T05:17:12.639-07:00I find a considerable degree of relief in the fact...I find a considerable degree of relief in the fact that we were forewarned. It doesn't make it less painful to watch, but it does strengthen one in the conviction that God remains in control of the situation, that this is still his Church, and that He will save those who persevere through it all.Radical Catholichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04135335562951838761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-75210769844428044612016-09-18T01:09:40.132-07:002016-09-18T01:09:40.132-07:00My option: Pope Francis & The Synod on the Fam...My option: <a href="https://thewarourtime.com/2016/04/15/pope-francis-synod-on-the-family-2015-stand-condemned/" rel="nofollow">Pope Francis & The Synod on the Family 2015 STAND CONDEMNED!</a>thewarourtime.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01978929245986924620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-37438831042059462762016-09-17T08:22:09.686-07:002016-09-17T08:22:09.686-07:00"The problem is not with the Catholic Herald...."The problem is not with the Catholic Herald. It is with Pope Francis."<br /><br />Actually, I would go further and say that the problem is not with Pope Francis. It is its Vatican II.<br /><br />Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00686466300503725349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-61994410502179738772016-09-16T20:48:31.781-07:002016-09-16T20:48:31.781-07:00Actually, this is a kind of "where have you b...Actually, this is a kind of "where have you been these past fifty years," sort of post. Bishops have been silent in people's lose of faith for years, and many were complicit in it!<br /><br />Though my hope is that they'd be inspired to act against Francis nonetheless. Experience, however, tells me otherwise.Brian Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16382047339018420875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-4898363247531863362016-09-16T20:38:31.813-07:002016-09-16T20:38:31.813-07:00Stories like this need to be sent to every bishop ...Stories like this need to be sent to every bishop in the world. If the apostasy and loss of faith of their spiritual children doesn't prompt them to act, than I don't know what will.<br /><br />Anyway dude, don't give up. This is a matter of salvation. Keep the faith and let God sort it out in his own good time.Brian Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16382047339018420875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-31520292100918709782016-09-16T20:10:49.906-07:002016-09-16T20:10:49.906-07:00I think this sub-thread is closest to the mark. It...I think this sub-thread is closest to the mark. It's the best set of answers I've seen so far.Oakes Spaldinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08078500142758654392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-23983171634763774712016-09-16T20:05:46.630-07:002016-09-16T20:05:46.630-07:00That's a great point. It now seems obvious to ...That's a great point. It now seems obvious to me, but I've never seen it made. Thank you.Oakes Spaldinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08078500142758654392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-12101716195528360722016-09-16T19:55:53.240-07:002016-09-16T19:55:53.240-07:00Dr. Mabuse, you have just given up. It violates ev...Dr. Mabuse, you have just given up. It violates everything you believe as a Christian. Do you have children and grandchildren? If you did I don't think you could possibly come to the same conclusion you expressed here. They need your faith! You have to pass it onto them! And that faith includes belief in one holy Catholic and apostolic Church.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16800929550275519742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-7506931567832881402016-09-16T19:48:20.973-07:002016-09-16T19:48:20.973-07:00I am a convert from a Presbyterian Church to the O... I am a convert from a Presbyterian Church to the Orthodox Church. But if I were to consider seriously joining Roman Catholic Church today it would be because there are people like the above who are agonizing over the state of things in the church and fighting for truth rather than just passively accepting everything that's happening with this pope Francis. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16800929550275519742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-18486787562104752752016-09-16T18:40:04.533-07:002016-09-16T18:40:04.533-07:00I think I've gone over to #5. Whatever it onc...I think I've gone over to #5. Whatever it once was, this thing presently calling itself the Catholic Church is not capable of bringing a human being to God. Yes, I know about the gates of hell and all that. Maybe we've misunderstood just what Jesus meant by "my Church". Maybe the Catholic Church was able to fill that role up until now, but can no longer. Like a human being, it was both mortal and immortal. When the immortal spirit leaves a man, we know what happens to the rest of him - that's what's happening now.<br /><br />By the way, that's my *generous* evaluation. It posits that God has simply dropped this one instrument, now that it's worn out and useless, and will carry on His work with another one. When I'm *really* feeling bad, I think about all those dead religions of the past, which also promised that they would never fail or disappear, and wonder if I'm just a witness of the end-cycle of what people 5,000 years from now will rank with Egyptian, Greek and Roman god religions. Who was the last guy to believe in Osiris? In Mithras? In Zeus? There must have been someone. Dr. Mabusehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01792194424034622756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-50127125291568303152016-09-16T18:18:23.277-07:002016-09-16T18:18:23.277-07:00Zippy once again comes in useful:
https://zippycat...Zippy once again comes in useful:<br />https://zippycatholic.wordpress.com/2014/03/14/how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-the-church/<br /><br />As far as teaching error goes, well, yes. Yes he has. Not infallibly, so no logical contradiction is involved is remaining Catholic or affirming that Francis is Pope, but I agree, it's pretty bad. As far as what good the Pope is, well, this particular Pope, I dunno, but even with its current occupant, the Papacy ain't nothing.<br /><br />For starters, even if he IS just a symbol and administrator, even if he's a bad administrator and a vague symbol, that isn't nothing. In order for the Church to take corporate action, somebody needs to be in charge. About the only alternative to a papacy is for Christ himself to direct it in person, and for whatever reasons he decided with infinite wisdom not to do that.<br /><br />Why are we allowed a such a lousy Pope? From the <a href="https://www.olrl.org/lives/vianney.shtml" rel="nofollow">Story of St. John Vianney</a>:<br /><br />To a priest who complained about the indifference of people in his parish, St. John Vianney answered: "You have preached, you have prayed, but have you fasted? Have you taken the discipline (a self imposed scourge)? Have you slept on the floor? So long as you have done none of these things, you have no right to complain."<br /><br />Now, I know that I, by many and divers grave sins, have contributed much to our punishment, and my penances have been light and desultory. I am part of the problem. Given the presumption and love of rebellion in our culture at large, I have no reason to believe that the bulk of folks, even within the Church, are much better off. And having a lax Pope who encourages them in sin is a punishment not only on Catholics, but on the whole world.<br /><br />Even setting aside the possibility of direct divine punishment, our current state is the natural result of a worldly laity. This is not simply a problem of bad clergy, or even a bad Pope. Where do clergy come from? Who are their first catechists? Who is most responsible for their formation, not only as clerics, but as men? Why, their parents. And are their parents clerics? Only in exceedingly rare cases. In other words, to quote Zippy again, "the problem is us, and the solution is repentance." <br /><br />Now consider that, according to St. Bernard of Clairvaux's Twelve Steps of Pride, one of the signs of sincere repentance is the acceptance of a harsh penance. Sure, our current Pope may seem an awfully harsh penance, but think of our sins. Do we deserve any better? <br /><br />I know it kind of sucks that you have to suffer for other persons' sins, and I apologize for my own part in bring this on you. But God punishes nations and peoples as well as individuals. Ezekiel and Daniel and Tobit were all exiles, after all. Not a whole lot I can do about that.Hrodgarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11052168727776803292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-72756023495144827582016-09-16T17:04:32.096-07:002016-09-16T17:04:32.096-07:00Any magisterial declaration in conflict with prior...Any magisterial declaration in conflict with prior declarations is ipso facto false. The supernatural is not needed for protection from error against Tradition, only against error from that which has not been defined. 11rhymesandreasonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13394640468566378949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-86179756584181012842016-09-16T16:30:06.424-07:002016-09-16T16:30:06.424-07:00I wish Barry Fitzgerald were Pope. I'd have no...I wish Barry Fitzgerald were Pope. I'd have no problem going his way.Liam Ronanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01376666519733160167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-80744599145765007212016-09-16T15:20:35.044-07:002016-09-16T15:20:35.044-07:00Why does everyone just ignore St. Bellarmine (Doct...Why does everyone just ignore St. Bellarmine (Doctor of the Church) among others?...<br /><br />"A pope who is a manifest heretic automatically (per se) ceases to be pope and head, just as he ceases automatically to be a Christian and a member of the Church. Wherefore, he can be judged and punished by the Church. This is the teaching of all the ancient Fathers who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction." (De Romano Pontifice. II.30.)<br /><br />It will be up to a future Council or good Pope to pronounce it certainly, but we're called to read the tea leaves and obey Christ against all enemies of Him, His Church, and the Divinely revealed Deposit of Faith. Follow the Faith Fred, and not a heretic. Trust in God to straighten it out 'officially', in His own time...chances are we will be loooong gone when that happens.<br /><br />Neither is the notion that the throne might in fact be de facto vacant (again, only a council or future pope can authoritatively proclaim that it is/was de jure), a call for fainting and hand-wringing. There have been periods in the past of multiple years sede vacante. It's up to the future and God's grace to formally proclaim francis and his machinations for what they are, and then go about setting things straight....we are simply called to stay faithful to Chris, and resist those who would attempt to rape His Bride. I strongly suspect the SSPX has been protected by Providence as a modern-day Pella for that very reason….discernment is called for….pray for it.<br /><br />Awful time to be alive, as hell appears to have been unleashed on the earth; but GREAT Saints are made in such times, soooo, great time to be alive. Keep the Faith….don’t go all wobbly, speak the Truth unwaveringly, and pray Rosary every day….and the Psalms help a lot too.<br /><br />Our Lady, Hammer of heretics….pray for us. <br />susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15742800352247658277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-59234692504488226032016-09-16T14:55:35.787-07:002016-09-16T14:55:35.787-07:00Ugh, I'm having a 5 day today, I admit, it'...Ugh, I'm having a 5 day today, I admit, it's creeping up on meeee. I say back, you diabolical doubts! But they are lurking in those blasted peripheries of my own mind. Were we just saps and fools? Are we the nerds of the spiritual world, and these worldling Bishops are far more cooler than we are?? We still believe in old-fashioned Catholicism. How quaint we have been.<br />I'm hoping for some Bishops and Cardinals to man up. Soon.Kathleen1031https://www.blogger.com/profile/10201084623185206141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-76589521248916498762016-09-16T14:49:14.391-07:002016-09-16T14:49:14.391-07:00As I read the other day, someone wisely observed, ...As I read the other day, someone wisely observed, this is a utilitarian view of God, it is to see him as someone to be USED, rather than Someone to be worshiped and adored.Kathleen1031https://www.blogger.com/profile/10201084623185206141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-68716573117186787322016-09-16T13:21:10.884-07:002016-09-16T13:21:10.884-07:00Here is my sedevacantist temptation, and I am look...Here is my sedevacantist temptation, and I am looking for reasons not to yield. Pope Francis has taught error to the universal Church and to the world. If a true pope can do this, then how do we know true popes in the past haven't taught error? And what good is the pope anyway, in that case, other than as an administrator or as some kind of symbol? Did Christ establish the papacy only for the rare infallible declaration?<br /><br />Talk me out of my growing sedevacantist leanings.P. O'Brienhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03184466434314298715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-18959286487022466352016-09-16T12:49:56.061-07:002016-09-16T12:49:56.061-07:00I'm not leaving. It's going to get even wo...I'm not leaving. It's going to get even worse. Francis said his papacy would be short. He's already overdue. Go to confession, pray the Rosary, help whomever you can to not lose faith.Patti Dayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00376125827604461007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1373152433565591514.post-58680622299030982472016-09-16T12:47:58.190-07:002016-09-16T12:47:58.190-07:00Utubeo; grow up.
He's stating fact....he'...Utubeo; grow up.<br /><br />He's stating fact....he's recognizing (as we all do by now) that the emperor is...well, you know. Papa's running down the street, butt-naked, mad-drunk, shouting inanities and blasphemies, and Mahound's just saying, "hey...that's messed up." If it offends you, go elsewhere. Ignoring it or saying nothing about it is more damaging than your scenario, and no retreat of any kind is going to change it. Frank is doing more to weaken people's faith than the recognition of that fact (and all the implications surrounding it) could possibly do. In fact, thinking out loud like this can be a help to many.<br /><br />Thank you Mahound for this post....It shores me up, and I don't feel quite so alone.<br /><br />susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15742800352247658277noreply@blogger.com